LCD Monitor Went Tits Up!

[Prince Valium]

I got this thing...

http://www.microdirect.co.uk/(31026)LG-22-L227WT-MonitorWidescreen-DVI-2ms-Black.aspx

Unfortunately someone forgot to mention that while it has a superb picture and perfect game movement the colour goes into magic mushroom mode if you move your head the slightest angle away from the centre of the screen. I have A HD TV which I assumed was the same technology and it doesn't have this strange viewing angle problem. From what I've googled it's normal for these TFT's. Though of course the sites selling them arn't keen to mention it. I suppose that's what happens when you've had a CRT for 80 years, you don't know the downsides of the 'improved' monitors'

I've gathered that TFT's that are capable of 'true' HD display 1920x1080 on a native resolution of 1920x1200 (it black borders the top and bottom) don't have this problem. Can anyone who has one confirm this as I'm getting a lift to Micro Direct tomorrow where I'll either just get it refunded or swap it for a 'true' HD LCD as long as I'm certain that I can actually use it without having to look directly at the screen 24/7 or the colours go insane.

I'm leaving about 10am, so a rapid reply to this would be greatly appreciated. I'm considering this one...

http://www.microdirect.co.uk/(30209)Iiyama-24-PLE2403WSB1-Monitor--ProLite-Wide.aspx

But I wanna know it'll work without viewing angle artefacts. I could be a pain in the arse and ask them to set the thing up I suppose.

Whoever said knowledge is power knew what he was talking about

I'm kinda fuming too because I could have had the chance to go to Sandys tomorrow with having to go to Manchester. Tragically I'm going via a lift from my sister!

"Hey, I just need to erm...can you wait here for a bit...I'll er...yeah" - You've no idea how annoying that is!

[MArkIT]

I got this thing...

http://www.microdirect.co.uk/(31026)LG-22-L227WT-MonitorWidescreen-DVI-2ms-Black.aspx

Unfortunately someone forgot to mention that while it has a superb picture and perfect game movement the colour goes into magic mushroom mode if you move your head the slightest angle away from the centre of the screen. I have A HD TV which I assumed was the same technology and it doesn't have this strange viewing angle problem. From what I've googled it's normal for these TFT's. Though of course the sites selling them arn't keen to mention it. I suppose that's what happens when you've had a CRT for 80 years, you don't know the downsides of the 'improved' monitors'

I've gathered that TFT's that are capable of 'true' HD display 1920x1080 on a native resolution of 1920x1200 (it black borders the top and bottom) don't have this problem. Can anyone who has one confirm this as I'm getting a lift to Micro Direct tomorrow where I'll either just get it refunded or swap it for a 'true' HD LCD as long as I'm certain that I can actually use it without having to look directly at the screen 24/7 or the colours go insane.

I'm leaving about 10am, so a rapid reply to this would be greatly appreciated. I'm considering this one...

http://www.microdirect.co.uk/(30209)Iiyama-24-PLE2403WSB1-Monitor--ProLite-Wide.aspx

But I wanna know it'll work without viewing angle artefacts. I could be a pain in the arse and ask them to set the thing up I suppose.

Whoever said knowledge is power knew what he was talking about

I'm kinda fuming too because I could have had the chance to go to Sandys tomorrow with having to go to Manchester. Tragically I'm going via a lift from my sister!

"Hey, I just need to erm...can you wait here for a bit...I'll er...yeah" - You've no idea how annoying that is!

Thanks for posting as I found two new bits of info I wasn't aware of, q.v. bias and offset voltage below ...

You've rasied two different things, viewing angle and resolution.

LCDs have a rather narrow viewing angle, certainly if you want good quality across the screen it will be less than any manufacturer will claim in advertising.  Some LCDs will have a bias built in to the display cells so their default viewing angle is actually offset from the perpendicular, but that won't be the case for LCD TVs and laptops etc.  'fraid there's not much you can do about it except review different products and see what works for you.  Howver in the manufacture process varying the offset voltage on the cell can alter the available viewing angle, but it's a trade off with contrast, so an LCD for TV use will not be set up the same as one for a business laptop.

Resolution is a different matter, ...

- if you have too few pixels on the LCD panel then you're going to get loss of information as the display interpolates between the pixels of what you want to view, say HD, and tries to find a colour and brightness that best merges adjacent ones to the fit the LCD panel - you'll end up with blur and colours being off.

- if you have too many pixels on the LCD panel, unless you like black strips or picture smaller than the size of your LCD panel, the display will do the same as above, but to fnd a brightness and colour to fit the extra pixels on the display - with the same issues of potential blur and colours being off.

In addition there's a few other factors that can screw your viewing pleasure, e.g. latency - the time it takes a pixel to turn off, the cells used in TV LCDs will go for low latencies, to reduce motion blur, but again it is a trade of as too rapid means the cell will go dark before the display driver has time to ge back to it and set its new brightness value, so you get dim low contrast pictures and at its worst a noticable flickering across the picture.

Anyway, fuck all the above.  The only solution is ask to try them out in the shop - and with your own viewing material of you can.  But don't forget that in the shop you will have fluorescent tubes as lighting and teh contrast and brightness settings of all the TVs will be set up different from how they shold be for the home, unless they have a special viewing room of course.

[Prince Valium]

I just got back from Manchester. The guy said if I bought another one (including the one I had in mind) it'll just do exactly the same thing. Looking at the monitors they have in store to let you browse their site I was inclined to believe him. I was directly dead centre and about 2 feet from one, moving just 6 inches to the side washed out a quarter of the opposite screen side. So bollox to that.

I just took the refund. It'll take me the best part of forever to find one with a good balance of viewing angles and fast response time for games. As I've said my LCD TV has a VGA input (ANALogue too ) and it suffers no colour change from any angle but it responds to fast movement like a deer in the headlights of a truck. Even 2d games on Mame and other emulators run crap.

I think my only option is likely an LCD TV with PC input and very fast response time. Those however cost a fortune at present. As I say the PC input on my existing one is only really a gimmick feature. It's fine for desktop/internet use on it's native res (1360x768) and it's startlingly clearer than my CRT. Don't try and play pong on it though

So that's it. Until prices come down I'm in CRT limbo. When I think about these problems with viewing angles I'm amazed you can even legally sell half these things tbh In the real world I wouldn't expect to have to keep my head permanently fixed in place or wave half the image goodbye.

[MArkIT]

I just got back from Manchester. The guy said if I bought another one (including the one I had in mind) it'll just do exactly the same thing. Looking at the monitors they have in store to let you browse their site I was inclined to believe him. I was directly dead centre and about 2 feet from one, moving just 6 inches to the side washed out a quarter of the opposite screen side. So bollox to that.

I just took the refund. It'll take me the best part of forever to find one with a good balance of viewing angles and fast response time for games. As I've said my LCD TV has a VGA input (ANALogue too ) and it suffers no colour change from any angle but it responds to fast movement like a deer in the headlights of a truck. Even 2d games on Mame and other emulators run crap.

I think my only option is likely an LCD TV with PC input and very fast response time. Those however cost a fortune at present. As I say the PC input on my existing one is only really a gimmick feature. It's fine for desktop/internet use on it's native res (1360x768) and it's startlingly clearer than my CRT. Don't try and play pong on it though

So that's it. Until prices come down I'm in CRT limbo. When I think about these problems with viewing angles I'm amazed you can even legally sell half these things tbh In the real world I wouldn't expect to have to keep my head permanently fixed in place or wave half the image goodbye.

I think the saleman was telling you porkies or didn't have a clue. 

The panel on this laptop is, and to quote the label, "18.4" Full HD 1080P Acer CineCrystal LCD", and is driven by the NVidia9500M chipset with turbocache.  I can watch Bluray on here, and my efective viewng angle, as far as I can tell with my fucked up ancient eyes, is arounf 45 degrees each side of the centre line - that's sat at a distance of about 2.5 feet.   

Of course the whole laptop is designed for HD Bluray movie playback etc and the choice of LCD technology is part of that.  But if mine is an indication of what can be done, then I'd say don't give up, but also don't listen to shop salesmen - they are mostly ignorant cunts!

[Seraphim]

MY LCD and my sisters has about 30 degree's, where my laptop much like ^^'s has about 50-60 degree's before it washes and is unviewable, and about 40-50 is still clear altho suffers from a little polarisation type effect, where the nearer bits are bright and the far bits are dark but still viewable.

It maybe worth buying an actual HD TV with a vga/dv port ?

[Prince Valium]

then I'd say don't give up, but also don't listen to shop salesmen - they are mostly ignorant cunts!

I was actually thinking they don't want this turning into a "here's your 10th monitor back" farce as he was speaking tbh. I'm well aware that most saleman don't have a clue. I had to explain to a salesman in Micro Direct once that you can't use Nvidia SLI on Intel motherboards as he explained "but my mate has 2 ATI cards linked on one"! I've had trouble with Micro Direct in the past when  a system I bought was suffering serious compatibility issues. By the time it was sorted out I'd probably spent more on travel fare than the PC

I think they may have thought "Oh Jesus Christ, it's him again!"

I'll keep looking around for reliable info, but my desire for one has died down now. CRT monitors don't suffer motion artefacts or viewing angle issues. So it's now gonna be a case of I'll get round to it eventually but it's gone to the back of my mind.

[Seraphim]

http://www.play.com/Gadgets/Gadgets/4-/3322032/Star-Wars-Nikko-R2-D2-DVD-Projector/Product.html?cm_mmc=Froogle-_-Gadgets-_-Boys+Toys-_-Star%2BWars%3A%2BNikko%2BR2-D2%2BDVD%2BProjector&source=5067&engine=froogle_gagets&keyword=Star+Wars%3A+Nikko+R2-D2+DVD+Projector

Maybe one of these is what you need ?

[Prince Valium]

http://www.play.com/Gadgets/Gadgets/4-/3322032/Star-Wars-Nikko-R2-D2-DVD-Projector/Product.html?cm_mmc=Froogle-_-Gadgets-_-Boys+Toys-_-Star%2BWars%3A%2BNikko%2BR2-D2%2BDVD%2BProjector&source=5067&engine=froogle_gagets&keyword=Star+Wars%3A+Nikko+R2-D2+DVD+Projector

Maybe one of these is what you need ?

  That reminds me of this old spoof.

http://www.upflicks.com/video/star_war_reedit/#

2 grand and he's not even HD! They milk Star Wars fans for every penny

There's clips on Youtube of people showing these things off. Not a good ida if you as me

[rayban]

Viewing angles are usually quoted in the specification.  With showroom LCD televisions you can view yourself.  The brightness and contrast of LCD TVs appear to me to be generally much superior to PC and laptop monitors, but be sure to check connectivity and response times also.  If your PC has a DVI port, you can connect to a LCD TV via a DVI to HDMI converter cable.

[Prince Valium]

Viewing angles are usually quoted in the specification.  With showroom LCD televisions you can view yourself.  The brightness and contrast of LCD TVs appear to me to be generally much superior to PC and laptop monitors, but be sure to check connectivity and response times also.  If your PC has a DVI port, you can connect to a LCD TV via a DVI to HDMI converter cable.

The viewing angle was actually news to me. My LCD TV can be watced fine from any angle. I'm pondering whether to screw the standalone monitor option and go for a 40" full HD LCD TV (some are aroud £600 now). I assume (read hope) that its angles would be fine. Therefore the number 1 issue is response time. It's pointless if I'm playing a high speed first person shooter and suddenly have to swing 180 to an enemy behind me if I cant do it wth perfectly smooth movement.

I've been googling some, but response times arn't as easy to find on LCD TV's.

There's this site that has reviews and tech specs...

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/selector.php

Some of there listings are a bit confusing however. Take this for example...

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Sony-KDL40W4000/Calibration/

"30ms faster than Samsung F96" - now 30ms is next to useless for gaming, pacman would stutter. Does that line mean it's 30ms better than an F96, or its simply 30ms? This model comes up when you put gaming as very important in the sites search filter. 30ms is a ludricious recommendation however.

I definitey won't be buying one until I know the specs inside out.

[MArkIT]

The viewing angle was actually news to me. My LCD TV can be watced fine from any angle. I'm pondering whether to screw the standalone monitor option and go for a 40" full HD LCD TV (some are aroud £600 now). I assume (read hope) that its angles would be fine. Therefore the number 1 issue is response time. It's pointless if I'm playing a high speed first person shooter and suddenly have to swing 180 to an enemy behind me if I cant do it wth perfectly smooth movement. ...

I don't see any issue with smoothly swinging 180 degrees if your gaming console / PC can manage it, the only issue will be (motion) blur as a result of the LCD cell latency and anotehr new term to me "input lag", and the stutter of the reletively lower LCD frame rate compared to what can be achieved (or is necessary) with a CRT.

This from Wikipedia re frame rate:

On smaller CRT monitors (~<14") few people notice any discomfort below 60–72 Hz. On larger CRT monitors (~>17") most people would experience mild discomfort unless the refresh is set to a more comfortable 85 Hz or higher. 100 Hz is comfortable for almost any size. However, LCD monitors suffer from different problems than their CRT predecessors and refresh rate would more accurately be referred to as frame rate in their case (often locked at 60Hz). The only part of an LCD that could produce CRT-like flicker, its backlights, typically operate at around 200–Hz.

Different operating systems set the default refresh rate differently. Windows 95 and Windows 98(SE) set the highest refresh rate that they believe the display supports. Windows NT based OSs such as Windows 2000, its descendant Windows XP and Windows Vista, however, by default set the refresh rate to the lowest supported, usually 60 Hz. And the many variations of Linux usually have the user set up the display manager during installation and set the preferred settings. Although with xfree86 a default option is usually included. Many full-screen applications, such as games, are expected to allow the user to reconfigure their refresh rate before entering full-screen mode. Some poorly designed applications will launch directly into full-screen mode in an out-of-range setting and force the user to reconfigure their video settings "blind".

This from Wikipedia re latency and lag:

On smaller CRT monitors (~<14") few people notice any discomfort below 60–72 Hz. On larger CRT monitors (~>17") most people would experience mild discomfort unless the refresh is set to a more comfortable 85 Hz or higher. 100 Hz is comfortable for almost any size. However, LCD monitors suffer from different problems than their CRT predecessors and refresh rate would more accurately be referred to as frame rate in their case (often locked at 60Hz). The only part of an LCD that could produce CRT-like flicker, its backlights, typically operate at around 200–Hz.

Different operating systems set the default refresh rate differently. Windows 95 and Windows 98(SE) set the highest refresh rate that they believe the display supports. Windows NT based OSs such as Windows 2000, its descendant Windows XP and Windows Vista, however, by default set the refresh rate to the lowest supported, usually 60 Hz. And the many variations of Linux usually have the user set up the display manager during installation and set the preferred settings. Although with xfree86 a default option is usually included. Many full-screen applications, such as games, are expected to allow the user to reconfigure their refresh rate before entering full-screen mode. Some poorly designed applications will launch directly into full-screen mode in an out-of-range setting and force the user to reconfigure their video settings "blind".

Have a look for nerdy review sites, but watch out for faulty science, e.g. on this linked article reviewing 24" LCDs read the first comment on the article highlighting the issue of measurement equipment at the limit of it's accuracy leading to false average readings.

http://www.anandtech.com/displays/showdoc.aspx?i=3302&p=15&cp=6

[Prince Valium]

I don't see any issue with smoothly swinging 180 degrees if your gaming console / PC can manage it, the only issue will be (motion) blur as a result of the LCD cell latency and anotehr new term to me "input lag", and the stutter of the reletively lower LCD frame rate compared to what can be achieved (or is necessary) with a CRT.http://www.anandtech.com/displays/showdoc.aspx?i=3302&p=15&cp=6

That's exactly what I'm explaining. The PC/console isn't the issue, it's how fast the LCD can update the change in picture. When I'm using clone mode I can see the movement difference in a side by side manner and it's vast. The CRT is perfect, the LCD TV is jerky as hell. The LCD monitor I brought back to Micro Direct did has superb response time (2ms) and while I used it there were no movement atefacts at all. The problem was the absurdly restricted viewing angles. If they weren't present I'd have kept it without hesitation.

[MArkIT]

That's exactly what I'm explaining. The PC/console isn't the issue, it's how fast the LCD can update the change in picture. When I'm using clone mode I can see the movement difference in a side by side manner and it's vast. The CRT is perfect, the LCD TV is jerky as hell. The LCD monitor I brought back to Micro Direct did has superb response time (2ms) and while I used it there were no movement atefacts at all. The problem was the absurdly restricted viewing angles. If they weren't present I'd have kept it without hesitation.

I kinda assume your PC etc. was not the issue, but made the point for completeness.   The input lag on an LCD should be consistant, so you shouldn't see jerkiness, just a lag or a feel of things being out of sync with what you are doing (but we're talking miliseconds here), so if you are seeing jerkiness (which I'm intepretting as stop/start motion) then something else may well be happening, either the display electronics inside the LCD unit or some issue with the much slower frame rate than on the CRT - but then you're saying you tried it in clone mode     Does that allow the two devices to have different frame rates?  If you were running a large CRT at the nominal 60Hz LCD frame rate you would see flicker on the screen due to the lopw latency of the CRT phospher.

[MArkIT]

I kinda assume your PC etc. was not the issue, but made the point for completeness.   The input lag on an LCD should be consistant, so you shouldn't see jerkiness, just a lag or a feel of things being out of sync with what you are doing (but we're talking miliseconds here), so if you are seeing jerkiness (which I'm intepretting as stop/start motion) then something else may well be happening, either the display electronics inside the LCD unit or some issue with the much slower frame rate than on the CRT - but then you're saying you tried it in clone mode     Does that allow the two devices to have different frame rates?  If you were running a large CRT at the nominal 60Hz LCD frame rate you would see flicker on the screen due to the lopw latency of the CRT phospher.

Oooops - meant "low persistance of the CRT phospher"

[Prince Valium]

I've found this very useful site for LCD TV tech specs. Has them for nearly every model (response times included). Well worth a look...

http://www.zettavolt.co.uk/TV/All.html